| Author | Message | ||
     Cerebralsugar |
 I'm very excited. It belonged to a good friend, and I had played through it on stage more than a few times. When he decided to sell it, I didn't hesistate. He wanted a lot of money for it, but it just has 'that' sound. I know people complain about the music man pre-amp grind but I really love it. Actually, what I love more than the sound is the way it responds when you dig in, and how it projects great - doesn't seem to be to harsh and loud anywhere in the room but still cuts through. This is a script amp, has two EL-34s and one 12ax7. I'm told (but have not verified) that it has been capped within the last 5 years, the speakers are original (but were reconed) and quite a bit of other work has been done to it - like new tube inserts. I will have to pop the chassy to know exactly what- I don't think my friend was into amp repair so he is just going on on what he was told when he bought it years ago - but it sounds good enough that I can believe somebody made an investment in this thing over the years. Cosmetically it is just a tad banged up, but hey, it's 30 years old. If the tolex is original I am really impressed. I'll post some pics in the bragging section when I can. I was told by the seller I would want to change the tubes and rebias right away because it really needed them (and I love it already!). One thing I notice though, the power chord is only a two prong - what is the feeling on this? Are there any serious safety considerations that should make me want to look into have an experience tech install a three prong? Assuming the caps are done and I have someone do the tubes and bias, do you guy recomend anything else? I might have some reverb questions to bug you guys about in a few days - I think it's sort of weak - I am going to take the tank out and see if the springs are broken and check the cable like suggested in other threads. I see this amp as a sort of investment, so I am not afraid to drop some money into it - in fact I think I am going to budget a little bit every year. Out of curiosity, any idea what these things are going for? It seems a lot of the MM amps you see are going for cheap prices, but they probably haven't been taken care of over the years. I haven't seen any 4x10's for sale. For me it was a great choice. I paid less than a grand for it, where i lousy super reverb reissue (yuck!) would cost over a grand, and even a silverface would probably run me between $800-$1100 in my neck of the woods. I guess a guy in Ohio did a lot of the work on this one. Are you in Ohio Steve? :-) Thanks for providing this resource, btw, it was good to know what i was getting into and make an educated choice. | ||
| Anonymous |
Less than a grand? Hope your 'good friend' used a lubricant. | ||
| Carl from Downunder |
Congrats, in australia $800US equates to about $1150AU that is very reasonable downunder, my friends 210 hd 130 cost $1500 and MM amps in poor condition are alway $800 + sure they are more readily available in the states but the 4 10 is the creme de la creme. Anonymous can get f*cked for all i care, he doesnt even have the balls to use his name, perhaps he lubes up over this very site, maybe he cant get his hands on a musicman! Looking foward to more posts and pics "cerebral" Steve K. will be impressed - he has this very amp! Peace. ps mine has a three prong plug but is an "export" model, so i cant help you mate? | ||
| Cerebralsugar |
I'm actually in the states so I may have overpaid quite a bit by some standards. I'm in New England though, and all we have are guitar centers with new stuff or used stuff that is crap. Getting into a good amp like a musicman is impossible because you don't see them around, and silverface deluxes go for $900, so prices are pretty high in general. To give you an idea 2 years ago I was playing gigs with the guy I bought this from, loved his, kept my eyes peeled on Ebay, hit all the local places that do sell vintage stuff, but only ever ran into a 2x12 in the flesh and the 2x10s on ebay. I'm guessing if I had found one locally I would have paid $700-$800. Then I probably would have had to have caps changed and soforth. Needless to say my feelings aren't hurt if I did pay too much - I love this amp. It also helps that while I floated myself a loan from savings, I have all but $250 of it paid for by selling off various cheap guitars and other junk I never use anymore that I needed to get rid of anyway. If the 4-10 scripts were plentiful around here, I would feel different but it's the only one I have seen in two years of being very open to the idea. The 2x12s seem much more popular. Like I said ever silveface super reverbs go for ridiculous prices around here so what you gonna do? I plan on keeping this amp for quite some time because when it breaks it can be worked on. I had a mesa subway blues I loved for quiter gigs, but if that pc board in there went and mesa didn't have any left, I would be shit out of luck - and I think mesa are the best of the new mass produced amps. I can fix (or habve fixed) anything that breaks on this amp. | ||
| Anonymous |
Carl, You wrote: "Anonymous can get f*d for all i care, he doesnt even have the b***s to use his name, perhaps he lubes up over this very site, maybe he cant get his hands on a musicman". Opinions are one thing, however explitives insults and general vitriol indicate a serious lack of self-respect. This has no place here. (Since your MM is of the "3 prong type" I'll quit hogging the 'lube', as you clearly need it more than I.) | ||
| Carl |
i think the reference to lubbing up is much more explicit than the use of swear words, what are you implying? apoligies if i did offend anyone on this site, however i clearly offended anon, who deserves what he dishes out. there is no place for you, full stop. if you like i re write it: Anon. can "take a hike" for i care he doesnt have the "guts" to use his own name after suggesting one used lube to (well i think we all know). anyway i wont reply to you again anon, regardless of how much time you wish to spend replying to me - BTW im flattered, you just dont derserve anymore of my time. And i think you owe cerebralsugar an apoligie. i would also like to say its people like you who give ameriacans a bad name. | ||
| cerebralsugar |
So, now that the flames have quieted down. :-) I had my first gig out with the new amp - actually a friends jam. Just before, I had replaced the power tubes with new ones (Groove Tube EL84ls, matched pair, the exact ones I was replacing.). So I popped the new tubes in and went off to play. Anyway, this wasn't a gig so much as a friend's gig, and the band was really tooooo loud. Maybe feeling a little bit too much of new-amp-itus, I turned on to high power, cranked the master and put the gain (channel volume) at about half. It sounded REALLY distorted for a minute and then the Pilot light went out. Yikes!!!!! Just then I looked in the back - the tubes were red. Argh. I checked the fuse, it had blown. I had some spares. I let everything cool, changed the fuse, plugged the old tubes back in, and played the rest of the gig cranked to the max on the low power setting with no problems (quite happily actually). I didn't try my luck on high power. Do you think this may have happened because I didn't bias for the new tubes? I thought I could get away with it because they were a new matched pair, exactly the same as the old pair (same hardness and everything). Or, do you think may I got a dud tube in there (the one closer to the transformer was glowing the brightest?). I think general operating procedure will be to run the amp on low power anyway - 35 watts with 4 10's is plenty of volume for me even as it turned out in this insanely loud situation - but incase somebody else or a drunk version of throws it on high power and cranks it I would like everything to be safe. Also, my fuse socket calls for 5 amp 125 volts - does anyone advovate using a 3 or 4 amp 125 volt fuse for an added level of safety? | ||
| michael kaus |
Well, those amps had a nasty habit of doing that. Biasing will help correct it. the sad part is that the new tubes are probably trash. Bias tem in the 21-23mA cold idle area and you should be ok. Mike. | ||
| michael kaus |
In ref to the fuse, the smaller fuse probably wouldn't change much because it would blow too easy. They pull about that much when right. I had one that used to eat tubes like that-had to bias it colder and then it was fine. | ||
| cerebralsugar |
Thanks Mike, any idea how to tell if my new tubes are trashed? They still work fine at low volumes, I put them back in when I got home last night - doesn't seem to be any funny business. I inspected every part I could see (from the outside of course) and there doesn't appear to be any damage or burn marks. Like I said before I think low power works fine for me, I may have the high power line disconnected when I have the amp worked on. Sounds like its better for everything - and to me I don't notice a huge difference with the preamp sounding different (a tiny bit less full maybe). | ||
| cerebralsugar |
According to the BIAS procedure for my amp I should turn the amp on high power, with the master down, measure the current across the 10OHM cathode resistor. Is this the big fat resistor coming off the tube socket that you can't miss? LOL - just making sure this is my first time. Basically I want to fool with the bias adjustment pot until I reliably get .5 volts DC across that big fat resistor. Thats all there is to it right?(Aside from, hold the probes with one hand dummy, don't touch anything, etc). | ||
| Cerebralsugar |
Answered my own question - I was relieved to see tube pins were numbered internally. A previous owner or tech also wrote in big black marker "10K OHM RESISTOR" with an arrow and "BIAS ADJUST .5 VOLT DC". Nice of them huh? The bias was definetly out. It's right on .5 now. If I biased this number is higher, does it mean the tubes are running hotter or colder? Any - gig tomorrow night - I think I will be in low power but I will let you guys know how it goes. | ||
| michael kaus |
I measure current per tube. If you measure total cathode current like that and the tubes are not closely matched, you could have 30mA on 1 tube and 20 on the other and still have a total of 50mA or .5v at that point. I would suggest checking current on EACH tube. Mike. | ||
| cerebralsugar |
Can I check that on the resitors next to the bias adjustment pot? I got matched tubes but you never know i suppose, they could have messed up and mislabeled one, giving two unmatched tubes. I think i'll be in low power tonight anyway (and bringing a back up amp in case). Thanks for all the help by the way - if you were anywhere near me in new england I would just bring my amp to you and pay you to show me. :-/ | ||
| michael kaus |
It's not dificult, just dangerous. If you're interested, we/I can give you links how to learn the process but remember, 700v is a lot to play around with unless you are comfortable. If you've ever been bit(I have) it is not a pleasant exp. I've been at it a number of years(?) and I'm still doing it with one hand in my pocket. MIke. | ||
| Cerebralsugar |
Thanks michael I heed your warnings. My father was an electronics engineer and I remember spending a lot of time taking things like toys or appliances apart when I was a kid to fix them. I don't remember if he did but he always taught me the one hand in the pocket thing. I have heard that an AC shock shocks you but pushes you away, where a DC shock makes you stick to whats shocking you. Don't know if thats true but drives home safety all the same. In the continuing saga even with my biasing, the tubes are still having problems. Perhaps one of the tubes got rattled around in shipping, or I just fried one the other day. Sinbce they were matched replacing the same type I am sort of surprised - but at my gig last night - this time no red plates, but the amp cranked way high was way to quiet. After the first song, I let the tubes cool for a few then pluck the old ones back in. It sounded great on high and low power the rest of the night, and I poked my head back there to see if I could spot any red - it looked good. I think I either got a bum set of tubes, or my inexperience made them poop the bed. I will check what the return policy is at the retailer I bought them at, but I don't hope for much. It's not like you can return prophalactics when they break either. :-) Otherwise a really happy MM owner - this amp is really well suited for what I play and even with the old tubes I couldn't be happier. | ||
| Anonymous |
Its AC that grips you, DC is less dangerous... | ||
| cerebralsugar |
Just a side note - Same Day Music, where I bought the new tubes, agreed they were probably defective and is granting an exchange. I'm very happy. All I will be out is shipping them back to them. | ||
| Steve Kennedy (admin) |
See, I just stayed out of it and it sounds like you figured it out just fine! You usually don't see a decent 410 go for much more than $550-$600 now days. Add to this a cap job, new tubes, rebiasing and shipping you could easily add another $300 to that. If you are happy, don't worry about other people's opinions. The only one who has to be satisfied is you! I have 2 410-65 amps (one old one like yours) and they are my favorite amps! Steve | ||
| cerebralsugar |
Thanks Steve. I've taken it out to clubs three times now, and I don't think I will be looking back. It definetly has what I am looking for. It sounds awesome with my strats and with my archtop. In the end I'm only into it about $250 because it forced me to sell off a lot of extra stuff I accumulated that was just taking up space. I have never had an amp that sounds so clean and clear - I don't have to be ear piercing to be heard well. Rings like a bell I think. | ||
| cerebralsugar |
Has anyone that has any of the amps with the 12ax7 phase inverter tube noticed a drastic difference in sound between brands used? I ran into a player who used to have a lot of MM stuff and he said it made a big difference. Any ideas on what brands are warmest? | ||
| c. |
Cerebral we are still waiting for some pics!!! inside and out! Thanks man - i would love to see | ||
| michael kaus |
THe JJ's have been described as "darkest". I guess that would qualify. THey took some of the edge off of my twin but I've got a POS EH in my MM right now until I have an order go into Eurotubes. MIke. | ||
| Cerebral |
I tried taking some pics with the digital camera I do have (the $30 walmart variety) and you couldn't see much detail. I'm still working on it!! I've recieved replacement power tubes from my vendor, and did the .5volt bias. I cranked it in my apt and everything sounded great, no weirdness. The real test will come Thursday and Friday night because I am working - one is a quiet gig one is a room where people like it loud. I cranked up my tremelo pot in there too - so that it will work on low power mode.. which I hope I don't have to switch out of. We'll see. | ||
| cerebralsugar |
Played last night and again tonight - yep - its everything I hoped it would be. The new tubes are great. Money well spent all around, even though it was alot. :-) A lot of people were coming up and commenting on it, which sort of suprised me. But I let a friend sit in and kind of checked out how it sounded around the room - it was clear everywhere but not blaring anywhere. 4 - 10's is the speaker combo for me. And the music man is voiced just right to really cut through but not be thin. Very happy musicman owner. The crazy part is that this amp is older than I am. (i'm 25) |