| Author | Message | ||
     Chuck Bryden (cbryden) Username: cbryden Registered: 12-2006 |
Had a little shootout the other day. On the left is a Music Man Fuchs Overdrive Supreme mod through a Mesa boogie 1x12 cabinet that contains a EVM12L. It's half open in the back. On the right is my prized Music Man 410 HD with two original speakers, one weber speaker, and one rajun cajun. Unbelievably the Fuchs through the 1x12 was LOUDEST. I wore plugs and couldn't believe how loud it was. THe tar was vibrating like crazy. (It should be 50 watts). The music man was 410 did not seem as loud. But, the sound it does I really love. I would never part with it. It's just a great sound that remains my favorite, even thought the fuchs does a lot of good sounds. Both are plently loud for gigging! I should have tried the Music man amp through the 1x12 and seen if it seemed as loud.  | ||
| Bill Traylor (bozzy369) Username: bozzy369 Registered: 02-2008 |
You are exactly right!You should run both heads though the same speaker arrangement to make a fair judgment.You could use either,the Fuchs though the 410's or the music man though the 1x12.I think you'll be surprised. | ||
| Daniel Hall (dan_hall) Username: dan_hall Registered: 01-2009 |
+1 on the apples to apples speaker test Another factor, I think, is the filter caps... surely Andy Fuchs replaced those in the head, but how fresh are the ones in the 4x10? Could be contributing to part of it. Also, do you know if he uses the original output transformer in his ODS mods? I'm not sure but I would guess he does. Or maybe he had to replace it because it was fried. Could also be a reason. By the way, how do you like the Fuchs? I've always been interested in his MM mods, although we might be deemed heretics for discussing it here  Dan | ||
| Chuck Bryden (cbryden) Username: cbryden Registered: 12-2006 |
Yeah, I know i didn't do a thorough volume test. The point was not to see which was loud, just what they would sound like at that volume. The music man won in that regard, I just dig it's sound when the master is on 10 and you bring the channel volume up to 7 or so. I was just surprised, seemed like 4 10's would trump 1 12 in terms of volume. But, this was outside, so it may have seemed quieter since there was nothing to bounce the sound back at me. With the 1x12 all the wattage would have been concentrated into one speaker. Also, the EVM-12L is a monstous highly efficient 200watt monster with a huge magnet. The fuchs is a cool beast, it definetly favors a light touch and takes some time to learn to dial it in. Once you do, it is surprisingly versatile and gets a good sound at any volume. I like it alot, especially now that I have the 1x12 cab. EVM-12L is recommended by many for the fuchs and for a good reason. I've had it for 3 or so months now, and I think I have finally learned to dial it into what for me are the sweet spots. I have used the fuchs head through the 4x10's of my music man. It is a cool sound, but much different than the 1x12. The ultimate may be splitting the 4-10s into two 8 ohm sets of 2x10s, musicman through one pair fuchs through the other. Perhaps the best of both worlds. The music man is still my favorite. While both are awesome It's just a classic, bright slight breakup sound that works perfectly for the blues, country, and classic rock I play. The fuchs and 1x12 are a lot easier to carry though! | ||
| Chuck Bryden (cbryden) Username: cbryden Registered: 12-2006 |
BTW, The MM was recapped in 2000-2001-ish so it is coming time for a new set, but they aren't that old. It does probably need some new tubes. I have been hammering the JJ EL34-L's in it for the last two years. I always head for the master 10 channel volume 7 sweet spot. It's loud but I stack stuff in front of the speakers to deaden it a bit. :-) I love the sound of it though, and it's still louder than I need for any gig, so why bother with new caps and tubes at this point? | ||
| Chuck Bryden (cbryden) Username: cbryden Registered: 12-2006 |
Sorry, i keep reposting - yes Andy Fuchs reuses the music man transformers in his mods. The chassis, power and OT transformer remain, everything else is new as far as I can tell. Since I don't think these things are secrets and users are free to open their chassis and adjust things, Here's the inside of the fuchs MM mod:  | ||
| Daniel Hall (dan_hall) Username: dan_hall Registered: 01-2009 |
Chuck, very cool, thanks for all the info. Yea, that "master 10 volume 7" thing is definitely one of my favorites, on the hd65 anyway - you can really fill some space with great sound. I've heard that the Dumble circuit requires a polished hand to work well. Thanks for the gut shot too, it's a neat layout he's got there. And don't worry, I'm not trying to clone, copy, sell or otherwise make money off his design, just curious is all. Speaking of curiosity, is that an ODS reverb? Just wondering why 4 preamp tubes (one clean, one OD, one PI , one reverb?). I don't know how handy you are, but those EVM's sound fantastic in the Thiele designed cabs, it's sealed back and front ported. Mesa Boogie used the design in some of their 1x12 cabs. There are plans on the web to build one if you got the skills or know someone who does, it's called the "tl806" cab. It would probably be a more focused sound than the open back you have, with a lot of low end oomph for a 1x12, you might be surprised! Although, if you're happy with what ya got... Dan | ||
| Bill Traylor (bozzy369) Username: bozzy369 Registered: 02-2008 |
It doesn't seem like you must own one ,because no mention in this test ,but I'd have to believe that the Fuch's is really made to shine when run though a 4/12 cab. | ||
| Chuck Bryden (cbryden) Username: cbryden Registered: 12-2006 |
7&10 for the MM 410 becuase it is a sixty-five with tube PI. It's a great sound. Even with stacking stuff in front of the speakers you have to get the band pretty loud to be able to do it though... not always possible. With the Fuchs, it gets a variety of great sounds at any volume level. I also usually set it and forget it. With the music man it seems I am constantly tweaking the mid control and the bright switch to sit in the mix with the band where I want it. The fuchs is quickly becoming a set and forget amp for me. I've also had some difficulties with Tinnitus over the last year, so it's benefitial to have an amp that I can get a sound I like at a low volume, and that doesn't push the drummer to be louder. With the MM nothing beats the sweet spot, and that's where I always head as quick as I can. I'm not sure what each tube does. I do know the reverb driver in Fuchs amps uses a solid state circuit and this amp does have it. Fuchs amps include reverb and a switchable series/paralell effects loop, which a lot of the dumble style builders do not or make you buy an external box for. Perhaps it's for that? As far as the Thiele cabs, I have heard great things, but was worried they would have that "deep" 4x12 sound which I'm not a huge fan of. (I was afraid it would sound too big!). I think most people like it, but for my own playing I like the lows not to be too loud - solid but not that boomy, echoy kind of low you get from the air in the cab. Maybe the theiles aren't like that? The mesa cab was like that until I took one of the back covers off. I've never really dug the closed back 4x12s for my own playing style. Just personal preference. COnsidering 95% of my favorite guitar players are playing my favorite stuff through 4x12s closed backs! If I get the chance to try one though i'll hook up to it. That's the beauty of a head I guess. Up until I got this amp I hated 12" speakers for guitar so go figure ( I was a diehard 10" guy). It really shines with the EV though. I think you are correct that the amp was designed for a closed back 4x12 sort of cab - before I got the EVM, I was using either the music man or my mesa boogie subway blues (1x10 speaker) as cabinets to try the head. The bass control on the fuchs seemed to have little effect and I just left it up all the way. Now that I am using the evm in the half open config, I notice it actually makes a noticeable difference. I bet it would make more of a difference in a closed back configuration. Anyway, both of these amps are better amps than I am a guitar player! I am lucky to have either of them and get to choose one or another for a gig. They each excel at different things and I would reccomend either to friends. One interesting thing, is that the dumble circuit does encourage you to pick gentler. It sounds pretty harsh if you hammer it all the time. I can understand why Stevie Ray Vaughan didn't care for the Overdrive Specials from Dumble and got the Steel String Singer (a clean amp) instead. I play a tele with single coils, so it's not like my pickups are clobbering it something. Play light though and that's where it does all it's cool dumbly stuff. | ||
| Daniel Hall (dan_hall) Username: dan_hall Registered: 01-2009 |
You know, maybe the thiele cab isn't what you're after if you just recently migrated from 10" to 12" speakers. It's really a different vibe than that. I find it really does the big, full, sort of 4x12 thing in a very compact package. It's maybe not as deep as it is punchy on the bottom, and I've always thought those EVM's have a beautiful balance from low to high. I have a 15" version that is in a bass cab and it certainly works well. So maybe worth a try if not an investment. Ah, yes, I forgot about the tube buffered effects loop. That explains the extra preamp tube I saw in the Fuchs. And a solid state reverb, eh? Didn't realize that. Well it's good to know you appreciate what you got. Anyone lucky enough to own a MusicMan is lucky enough indeed. Dan | ||
| Bill Traylor (bozzy369) Username: bozzy369 Registered: 02-2008 |
ok,one last comment on this test and other possible great ideas.1.if its the heads you are rating you need to test both in each others speaker setup,or just have one to test the sound between them(which you did).2.try different volume tests,one test with the volume set to where you like it,then match the other head to that same volume regardless of where that falls on the volume knob,next try the opposite put the volume of the the first amp on the same volume of the second this just judges output not necessarily tone.note also a one speaker test may reveal a better difference between the heads.the only thing i'm getting at is the music man head has so many different speaker flavors going on it could have been unfair to the Fuchs.ok,enough about tests. next about the 4/12 thing,to say a 4/12 is always boomy is kinda general,I've heard many that were really bright,most in fact are very mid heavy,that's why they are favored by most. but you did run upon a thing that Mesa does that most don't and that is the option for either open or closed backs,this is true for most of their 4/12 cabs as well.i'm sorry if I'm long winded about all this but I like A/B tests to be abit more scientific .one thing that would be great is post mp3 tests of each setup and see if the community agrees(just a thought).the main thing is your ears are your ears what you might think sounds wonderful might sound bland to others and vise versa.so,find what you like and enjoy it,others might just enjoy it too. | ||
| Bill Traylor (bozzy369) Username: bozzy369 Registered: 02-2008 |
sorry .one last thing ,were both heads set flat on the tone knobs ,like everything on 1, 5 or everything on 10? | ||
| Chuck Bryden (cbryden) Username: cbryden Registered: 12-2006 |
yeah again not really an a/b test more an excuse to crank them. knobs were not set similar or anything, just both set so each amp could do it's own good sound. |