| Author | Message | ||
     B. Fredericks |
I was wondering if anyone had any suggestions on what MM amp would be the best for Bass use. I am looking into an hd 130 or an hd 150 head. Does anyone have an opinion on the EL 34 tubes vs the 6L6's, power and tonewise for bass? Does the extra 12AX7 seem to make a difference for bass? Background: I really like the sound of a Fender Bassman 100 but I wanted something with a little more power and a little less compression. I use a Rick 4001 with a pick into a 4 ohm SWR Triad cab, if that matters. Any bass players opinios would be helpful. Thanks! | ||
| Steve Kennedy |
Some might consider it to be heresy (for me, anyway) but I don't use a Music Man for bass at all (or any tube power amp for that matter)! I tried an HD130 head and while it sounded OK, the "little" 4-space rack system I assembled blows the HD-130 out of the water when it comes to punch, definition and power. I use a Peavey MAX tube/solid state preamp (2 selectable or mixable front ends and built-in electronic biamp crossover) driving a Crown CE1000 power amp (I got both of these used off eBay at reasonable prices.) I can run it at 275 watts biamped into 8 ohms, or get 960 watts bridged mono into 4-ohms (560 watts into 8 ohms). In the bass department, having more power than you think you need (for punch, "throw" and high-headroom)is more important to me than "tube tone". I like how tight it sounds and not so loose and sloppy like a tube amp can sound. This is mainly due to "dampening factor", a measure of how well the amp output stage is controlling the motion of the loudspeaker. This is usually MUCH better (high dampening factor)with a solid state amp because the output transistors are directly coupled to the voice coil (low impedance circuit). Direct control is more precise control. The output tubes of a tube amp (high impedance circuit) have an indirect connection to the speakers through the output transformer so the dampening factor is low. This causes the control of the speaker motion to suffer at lower frequencies and causes mechanical overshoot and poor recovery times so things sound loose and sloppy. It's a little like driving a car with a soft rubber stearing wheel... it is most difficult to be precise and over/under correction happens constantly. You will notice that the most highly-regarded Music Man Bass-specific models are all solid state (i.e. 120B). These are late models and are harder to find than the "guitar" amps. Your Mileage may vary, of course, but while I spent a bit more money than what an HD130 or HD150 would cost, I didn't have to restore or repair anything and it weighs little more for a package that sounds better, is more versatile and has almost 10X the power! That's my take on it... (for Bass, anyway). I have an ENTIRELY different opinion for electric guitar, of course! Steve | ||
| Steve Pederson |
I'll leave the technical analyis to the Big Guy, a.k.a Steve Kennedy. My very first bass amp was a Peavy combo I got back in 79 or 80. Very tight, but not alot of soul. I got a MM 75 amp and RH115-75 speaker new back in 81 or thereabouts. I have gotten compliments on the smooth tone I get when using my '75 Jazz bass with this combination. I have also used the MM 75 amp with an Acoustic 301 cabinet with a ported 18" speaker. It thunders and is VERY loud, but doesn't have punch, so it has been my home practice speaker. Last year I got a 2x10 cabinet (Hartke 210TP) to use with the MM 75 and RH115, which really added punch to the sound. Changing out the original tubes (which I still have) for new Groove Tubes also livened up the sound. I recently picked up an HD130 and RH118-150 (18" speaker) speaker cabinet, which I stumbled across at the guitar shop when my Jazz Bass was being set up. Now I am running a "biamp" system with a HD130 matched with the 2x10 and another HD130 matched with the RH118. Very nicely balanced sound - I love it! Every frequency is there and it sounds precise without sacrifing tone. Even the HD130/RH118 by themselves sound tight and ballsy. The others in the band have mentioned how the bass cuts through better now. I have played my '75 Jazz Bass, Epiphone Jack Casady Signature, and '67 Fender Bass V through this set up and they all sound great. That surprised me since the pickups on those 3 basses are very different from each other. I have yet to try the old Guild Starfire, which has always sounded a little muddy with the other amp/speaker conbinations. Both HD130's have new tubes, one with GT and the other I belive is Svetlana. The GT's are brighter sounding, assuming the amps are in similar condition otherwise. You can GT's with different tonal qualities, and I don't know what these are. After all this rambling my bottom line opinion is that it takes experimentation to get the sound you want, but I believe you can get it with a tube amp. I love the warmth of the tube sound. As for sound level, I keep both amps at about 2 - 3 on the channel volume with the master at 10 and the power switch on low and still get complaints about being too loud in practice. There is plenty of volume for any place I might play. Having said that, for me having the right speakers is just as important. I haven't opened up the RH118 to see the brand of the speaker, but the scratch marks indocate that someone has opened it up in the past so it may be a replacement. Now the 75/115RH are my home preatice set up and the Acoustic 301 will be for sale soon. Good luck! | ||
| michael kaus |
I have to agree with Steve. SS is great for bass. I play bass about one set per night and use a hacked together bass rig of ano old sunn 1-15 cab with a JBL D140 and an Avatar B2-10 driven by an old Peavey XR 600 pa head that I rewired the preamp a little(copied the preamp stuff from a Mark lll head per Peavey factory guys tips. Puts out over 200 watts through the 15 and 2-10s and sounds really good. Almost makes bass fun! I still want my MM 2-10 65 for guitar though. Mike. | ||
| B. Fredericks |
Wow! Thanks for the replies everybody. I can see your point Steve K & Michael about the SS amps but I've used SS amps for years (Fender BXR300, Peavey mark III, and currently an AMP BH-250, which is similar to the new Thunderfunk head) but when I borrowed a '72 Fender Bassman 100 recently it was an eye opener. The low end was fatter and nicer with a bit of grind that I really liked. I also did not need to be quite so technique oriented; not as much fret and pick noise to annoy me so I could just rock. It seems to fit better both in a live context and on a recent studio trip. If I went with a high powered SS system I know that I would get an even louder version of what I already have, and I think that "accurate" is maybe not what I need. I like a Chris Squire type sound and he uses 60's Marshall tube heads chained together. Obviously more money than I want to spend, which is what brought me around to researching MM amps as little more powerful alternative to a Bassman 100. I used to have an 212HD-150-EVM for guitar a long while ago; too many watts for guitar and way too heavy at 92 lbs! But if anyone has an opinion on 6L6 vs EL34 bass response question in my original post I would be greatful. I would love to try one of these HD-130 or 150's out myself but I can't find any in the seattle area right now. P.S. Thanks for the tube info Steve P. Beau | ||
| Steve Pederson |
Beau, I have just used direct replacement tubes in my amps - 6L6 in the 75 and 6CA7 in the HD130's. I like the sound of the HD130 better. I can get a Chris Squire sound using my fingers instead of a pick, so you should have no problem using a pick. My string of choice is Dean Markley Blue Steel/Nickle Plated Steel, which to my ears are pretty lively. I would caution that I drive my MM amps into moderate distortion when playing hard at normal amp settings. Since I like the Jack Casady sound from his Airplane days, this is a plus for me. Maybe my amps need new caps.... I had a Bassman when I bought my MM 75. I ended up trading the Bassman away when I decided the MM had a more balanced tonal quality. The MM seems more flexible in the sounds it can generate. I am mostly a finger plucker, but will do some slapping or use a pick if it fits the song better. No matter what style I try, I don't lose the bottom with the tube amp. I occasionally see MM amps in the shops here in the Syracuse, NY area, but they are always on eBay for about $250 - $275 +/- for an HD130 (plus shipping). "The lesser of two Steves" | ||
| Jesse Tobias |
If you liked the Fender Bassman 100, you would love the SS Music Man 120B. Think of a Fender on steroids. Full punchy sound. Great lows and crystal clear highs. You don't need no tweeters for this amp. The EQ on these amps are like no EQ you've seen or heard of before, starting with 67HZ, 184HZ, 510HZ, 1.4HZ, 3.8HZ. I have been playing these amps since early 1981 and they still sound better (tone wise) than anything that's out there today. For more power, I use two of these amps. For even more power I hook up a Mackie 1400I and run two Music Man RH115, stacked. I'd liked to add that my Music Man Sabre bass SN# 005092 sounds phenominal out of this rig. Jesse | ||
| Steve Kennedy |
I have to admit that the HD-130 head I tried for bass was "tired" and in need of "freshening up". Also temper my opinion by the fact that I am primarily a guitar player who has chosen to play bass in a band instead of guitar (for the first time in 25 years!). While tubes do usually impart a warmer and more organic character (which is an asset in the studio), I find that being tight and punchy helps me sync-up with the drummer when playing live without having to resort to increased volume which translates into "mud & boom" in many rooms. Everyone has an opinion based on their preferences and not everyone will have information compatible with your situation. It's great to see multiple DIFFERENT opinions so you can pick and choose points that relate to YOUR situation and preferences. | ||
| michael kaus |
Steve you're right. What the hell do I know anyway-I'm playing bass through a PA head for God's sake! | ||
| Brian McLaughlin |
Hello guys, and thanks so much for all of the info about music man amps. I believe that Steve mentioned an all solid state bass amp earlier in this discussion, (120B) ?? Is this a self contained combo? I don't believe that I've ever seen one of these. | ||
| Jesse Tobias |
Yes the 120B came as a combo amp with a 12" or a 15" speaker. But they also made it as a single head, which I have two of them. 120 watts @ 4 ohms and 80 watts @ 8 ohms. The EQ on these babies are amazing. These are all solid state. Built like a destroyer. Once in a great while you'll see them on e-bay. Hard to find, but worth picking up. | ||
| Steve Pederson |
There is a 120B head only for sale on eBay for $175. Sale ends June 13. | ||
| tpaulram |
Hi... I am in the proces of buying a MM 100B head at a dirt cheap price - the tubes need to be updated, but everything seems to be working fine. Cosmetically it is outstanding... Can't find a lot on this particular model. Can you enlighten me? Any insight into the 100B is greatly appreciated. Thanks. | ||
| B. Fredericks |
Greetings everyone I thought that I would add some comments just as a resolution to my original post. I was initially looking for an Ampeg SVT type rig without the SVT weight or price. I originally found a Peavey Alphabass head which is a 160 watt 6x6L6 head with mucho features modeled after a Mesa D-180. It sounded all right but the low end wasn't even as sweet as my brother's silverface bassman 100 head and neither was the tube breakup. I ran across a HD150 head at a pawn shop for $250 with a 7 day money back guarantee. A/B 'd it with the Peavey and the MM won easy, even before the tubes were checked. This model has the script logo but no 12ax7, which probably none of the HD150's had. The sound is very,very nice. I set the master at 10 and the pre on the bass channel at 3 or 4 and it is plenty loud for any clubs that I have played. It doesn't quite have the really nice compression that comes with preamp tubes but at the same time the sound doesn't change widely when I turn the volume up or down, like with the old bassman 100. Just a nice little bit of dirt for character that I love. I would assume that it's more reliable too. I used to use an SWR Triad cab but recently tried out an old Traynor 6x10 cab that sound more vintagey and less honky than the Triad (tweeters for bass suck!). The Traynor is not really that heavy and it looks alot better with the MM than the SWR. I have mostly been using my Geddy Lee Jazz Bass and the combo of the 3 has huge bottom end and cuts thru really nicely. I still have not run across the 120B that you folks were talking about but I have to say that I really doubt that that amp would sound better for playing R&R with a pick than my HD150. Country, Jazz, Slap? Go the solid state route. For me, I'll take my Chris Squire on a budget rig. I'll still keep my eyes peeled for one though! As far as the 6L6 vs. EL34 thing goes, I've heard that the general wisdom is that 6L6's have more bass response than EL34's so I would guess that the HD150 would sound better/louder for bass guitar than the HD130. That said I have never a/b 'd the two together so I don't know for sure. Keep in mind that Music Man chose to use EL34's and only switched to 6L6's when they couldn't get a steady supply of EL34's anymore. They must have thought that the EL34's were a better tube for a reason. Anyways, thanks for letting me ramble and giving my 2 cents worth. Thanks MM Forum! Beau |