Hello, can somebody tell me what my 10 inch speakers in my 210/65 amp are rated at ? I know there is an RMS rating and a Peak Output rating.
Unfortunately my original speakers are exhibiting the familiar jangly/metallic sound that usually means that the voice coils are just plain old tired.
I know that the dreaded jangly/metallic sound coming directly out of my speakers is not caused my tube microphonics hence I connected another cabinet to the amp and the sound is totally gone.
Yes I've checked to make sure my speakers are installed securely and I just installed 2 new JJ 6CA7 power tubes and a new driver tube.
Peace & Kindness, Charles
MM Factory 10" Speakers
On the 10" speakers that came with the 65 series amplifiers you have to watch out because they were under-spec'ed and quite often failed when pushed too hard for too long. I bought 2 used 410-65 amps about 20 years ago and BOTH amps had 2 of the 4 speakers blown! I put all 4 good 10" speakers in the early model 410-65 (1974, with 12Ax7 P.I. tube) and put it in storage for later restoration.
I then installed 4 brand-new Fender (# 099-4810-004) "Special Design" Blue Label speakers (8-ohms, made by Eminence, used in the 90's Princeton Chorus amps and Roc Pro cabinets to name a few) in the later model MM 410-65 (1979) w/ the solid-state P.I. (this newer one is my "daily driver", I haven't used the earlier one for years). These "Fender" speakers are rated at 75 watts RMS each and have been proven (to me) to be reliable and a great sounding unit to use with a Music Man 65-series amp. I have played numerous outdoor and large-venue gigs with this amp and it has never failed me and sounded great from day one with the new speakers.
The HD130 10" speakers (square ceramic magnets) were fine but the smaller-magnet 65-series speakers were never as good at handling the output from a 65 series amp.
Steve
There are two different ones!
If I may elaborate: The 210-65 had a different speaker than the 410-65. The 210 used the A10G/HD with the AlNiCo magnet. The 410 came stock with model F10G with a small ferrite magnet. As Steve points out, the latter model is not the best. While I wouldn't hesitate to have an A10G or similar reconed, the F10 should just be replaced with, say, a Fender style speaker. The A10G is rated at 65 watts. This one was also used in the 210HD and 410HD combo amps. The 210RH cabinet uses a slightly heavier version called A10RH.
Sincerely,
Lars Verholt
As Lars points out, the 2-10
As Lars points out, the 2-10-65's had a different speaker. Here are pics on the ones that came out of mine. I never did like the sound of them and put in some weber cali 10's.
My early '75 210 Sixty-Five
My early '75 210 Sixty-Five came with Eminence coded alnicos from late '74 that sound great to me. In fact, I used that amp as a speaker cabinet (hadn't finished restoring the MM's electronics) with a '68 Bassman head at a large outdoor party in November and I thought it was the best tone I've ever had.
65 410 speakers
Hello,
Maybe you all might have some input / advice and I'd appreciate it! I'm headed to uncharted territory for me and I do not have the ability to buy more than one set(s) of speakers - please read on for clarification as it's perhaps not really simple. Maybe it is though...
I'm in the process of figuring out what to do with a 65 112 and 65 410. The (3 of 4) speakers in the 410 have large round magnets in the box (unknown and likely not original because they are not square?) - with one oddball which is some sort of Jensen special design. I have not picked the 410 amp up yet; and all I know is that they supposedly work.
I'm thinking I want to convert the 112 (Stock) to 210's (or maybe 410!) and if anyone might have one of these to give me an idea or template of some sort I'd be appreciative if I decide to go the 210 route although I'm leaning toward the 410 x 2. Wouldn't converting the 112 to a 410 would be a better way to go??? Then I would have a matched set. I'm going "stereo" with a liquid chorus - even when it's off I still have 2 signals out. Yes - not stereo but at least 2 usable outputs.
I like bluesy warm SRV, Gilmour, Hendrix (Johnny Winter too) tones if that makes any sense. Maybe like "spanky / shimery sparkle / with full bottom without muddiness. Yes, I believe we can cover all of these bases with the MMs. I love how darned Clean these MMs are and I am (I believe) fortunate to have the phase inverter tube in both of these. I do know that speakers DO make a difference in tone and; as far as I can tell thus far - having a matched set of 65 410s would be pretty sweet! Oh - if it makes a difference I'm running old fender standard (60's) single coils.
I sometimes keep hearing from at least some folks that the 410 setup is a way better way to go if possible... I believe I can pull off the 410 "conversion".
So - what do we all think? 410? and if so what new speakers for the transplant? Fender style 10s? I don't want it too bright - as in tinny if that makes sense.
I can't find 4 of the fender 099-4810-004 speakers and I'm wondering what the difference is between these and the weber cali 10s? (is there an exact part number of additional info on these? What are other good options - if any? So far I can't even find 4 of either of these.
Thanks in advance for your input gang!
Don
Why convert?
If I may suggest something: The 410 amps, as lovely as they sound, are not worth as much as the 112 and 210 amps. You can sell a 65 112 amp for more than any of the 410 MM amps. Running two amps is really cool - and running one straight and one with medium to heavy tremolo is outta this world. Another thing to try is adding an extension cabinet (MM or otherwise). You can build the cabinet yourself if you'd like - experiment all you want and still keep your amp original.
Cheers,
Lars Verholt
Convert without butchering
Hi Lars,
Thanks for the reply here. The MMs are reasonably priced if you can find what you are looking for. Maybe this post will stop some butcher along the way. I don't see any 410s around - maybe I didn't look enough? As far as a conversion goes I'm looking for a cabinet to use such that I'd keep the original cabinet as it is and undamaged. I received the 410 today and even with one frozen speaker and an oddball in it - it seems even nicer - tone wise than the 112. Indeed the 2 amp options are many, varied, and sometimes flat out "really, really cool."
The 410 I got is a case in point of the craziness we see people do sometimes. The term "butcher" comes to mind. Crap grill cloth "repair?" Let's just throw the badges away. Oh - these short drywall screws should fasten the grill and speakers perfectly! Oh - what the heck - Who wants the reverb unit anyways - toss that... Oh - cabinet corners? Why have those either?
Yikes!
However it is a model that has the inverter tube AND it works!
I wonder how hard it would be to build a cabinet! Any ideas? On the up side I now have all of the dimensions.
Please let me know if you see a 65 410 around as I'd go that route in a heartbeat! Yep - I'm still looking. I wouldn't mind having a spare; although these things are dependable tanks.
Meanwhile Lars my friend - I can't even tell what the speakers even are; with the exception of the Jensen special design.
I'm thinking that Fender Bassman type of speakers would fit the bill. Any ideas Lars? Wattage? Ohms? Model? I figure I can't Exactly use Bassman speakers because of the 65 watt amp rating? I'm feeling out of my league here and unsure of the right solution. I know that speakers will affect Tone and Bad Tone Sux.
Thanks again Lars!
Don
Re: Convert without butchering
Hi Don, Why not get serious and get a 4x12 extension cabinet? And while you're at it, load it up with Celestion Creamback and/or V30 speakers. Check out Avatar http://avatarspeakers.com/home/ for great prices on quality cabinets plus Celestion and Eminence speakers. I have a fully restored 112-65-RD with a Celestion Creamback that sounds awesome compared to the stock Eminence speaker. Granted the stock speaker was very tired. I also inherited a Carvin SX200 2x12 combo in which I installed one Creamback and one V30 from Celestion. The Carvin amp has a lot of power but sounds "clinical". When I hooked those 2 12 inch speakers to my MM 112-65-RD with an extension cable, I was amazed. And when I ran all 3 speakers in 4 ohm mode, I was blown away. BTW: I bought all 3 speakers from Avatar and they have, without a doubt, the best prices on quality hardware. Lars is giving you good advice. Don't hack up your MM 65. You will regret it. One of my buddies has a Fender SuperSonic 65 with a single 12in. Celestion V30. He was blown away when he hooked it up to the Carvin Cabinet with the Creamback and V30. I hope I haven't offended anyone with my preference for Celestion Drivers.
65 112 / 410 speakers
Hello Mike,
Thanks for the thoughtful reply here.
Well - A 4x10 cabinet is an option indeed. However I would then have 3 options as I see it. A: convert the 65 to a head unit.
B: Find a 410 cabinet I can transplant the amp itself into. C: keep the 112 as is and get a new quality 12 in it.
I believe that a super reverb cabinet would work; for transplanting the 112 65 into; however that might be a spendy option. I'd really like to stick with a combo; especially as I'm running 2 amps these days.
Maybe just putting a creamback in the 112 and leaving it as is might be a reasonable option; but my interest is really piqued with the 212 speaker combination you mention Mike!
What will be the tonal differences between the 410 and 112 / 212 ??? I know mixing speakers can actually be a good thing.
Celestion has a great reputation and this creamback / creamback & V option appears to be quite the option(s); and options are what I'm exploring here. This being said; another option might be to make up a front for the 112 and make it a 212; leaving the original intact of course. As far as I can tell from what I'm hearing you say Mike is that a 212 would offer a Significant improvement!
What specifically is the V30 model you are referring to? I'm curious as to how did you come up with the idea of combining these two speakers Mike.
I really don't appreciate people butchering nice stuff; although at times I benefit from others butchering stuff because I get good butchered up stuff cheap and fix or restore it. I'm not advocating butchers here;) Speaking of butchered stuff I need to figure out replacement speakers for the 410 ASAP! as most of them are not useable. (I know I'm going out on a limb here but I figure that speakers with holes in them and ones that are locked up tight = Very Bad for getting good tone.)
The speakers you mention are for the 112...I need to somehow figure out viable options including wattage and Ohms for the 10 inch speaker purchase ASAP. I'm most anxious to hear how the 410 will sound with speakers in it; and I'm feeling like I need to get something in the works in the next few days.
I can not buy different speakers to try out, so I have to seek input from generous and knowledgeable folks like you and the other folks on the board here Mike.
Another question I believe to possibly be important is if you are running single coil or humbucking pickups as this also does make a difference. I'm running pretty much exclusively vintage 60's single coils.
I really appreciate you all for taking the time to give me your valued insight on this.
Don
Re: 65 112 / 410 speakers
It's hard to say what the tonal difference would be between single/vs multiple speakers, but multi-speaker cabinets offer a less focused, ie. broader image and bigger fuller sound-face. Think of it as single point source vs multi-point source. You asked about the V30. That's short for Vintage 30. Check the Celestion website for details. http://celestion.com/ Ask the Google for speaker comparison videos. Here's one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2j9MwBC22ZA Use your imagination to ask the Google some questions. Granted, you'll be listening through crappy computer speakers, but the good guitar speakers will sound better than the lousy ones. One last thing to consider: Combo Amps are more prone to microphonics than seperate amp and speaker cab. Not that big of a deal with MMs as they have SS preamps, but still have power tubes. This makes a huge difference in all tube amps. Lastly, single coils, in-phase humbuckers, normal humbucker, that's an entirely different subject. Pick your poison, they're all good. A great guitar and a $#!tty amp will always sound worse than a $#!tty guitar and a great amp. Likewise, a great amp and $#!tty speaker will always sound worse than a $#!tty amp and great speaker. Just my humble and probably biased unprofessional opinion. -mgriffin