| Author | Message | ||
| Steve Kennedy |
Here is a photo of the rear of my 210RD100-EVM. This is one of the auction photos taken before I owned it. I post it here simply so you can see what the 10" Electro-Voice drivers look like. As far as I can see, they don't say "EV" on them anywhere. The giveaways (besides the sound qualities) are the cast aluminum magnet heatsink & frame along with the large 2.5" (I think) voice coil. These babies aren't "warm & cuddly", but "LOUD & Proud"! I could peel paint with these speakers... they would probably take 250 watts and barely work up a sweat! Heavy buggers, too. Steve  | ||
| Smote |
I'm not sure if I like Electro Voice speakers.. They kinda punch you in the face, and pickup more mistakes? on the guitar.. Your amp here looks like it would sound awesome! because its Music Man! ps.lets see the front! also I'd like to see more pics of MM amps. tks | ||
| Dan Marx |
Steve - Haven't been to your site in a while, the new message board is a nice upgrade. The EV that came with my RD112-50 does not have the ridges that are apparent on the back of your speakers, perhaps EV designed the 10's differently from the 12's? I replaced that speaker first with a JBL D120F, but currently with a Celestion Vintage 30. At this point I'm happiest with the Celestion as it seems to accentuate the things I like about the MM and downplays the timbral elements that I dislike. It also makes it lighter. It's not my favorite, but it's still a great, light utility amp. | ||
| Steve Kennedy |
Glad you made it back! You are correct, the EVM 12" speakers don't look anything the EVM 10" drivers! The EVM 12" speakers I have seen have a really large diameter magnet structure devoid of any ridges or heatsinking. Here is a photo (See next Post below) of a Mesa "Black Shadow", which is really just an Electro-Voice EVM (it even says so on the label!) I think they added heatsink fins on the 10" to increase heatsink surface area on the relatively small diameter magnet structure. I have a couple of external cabinets with Celestion Vintage 30 speakers in them and they sound great! Less filling too (lightweight)! (Message edited by admin on September 28, 2002) (Message edited by admin on September 28, 2002) | ||
| Steve Kennedy |
Here is the photo of the 12" Electro-Voice EVM (in Mesa Engineering "Black Shadow" clothing):  Steve | ||
| Dan Marx |
Oh yeah, that's the bad boy. The one from my RD112-50 looks just like that, except it's completely black and there's no label on the magnet. Even the solderless terminals are the same. In fact, the pinwale tolex on your amp looks exactly like my amp also, I wonder if you've spilled as much coffee on yours as I have on mine. | ||
| Steve Kennedy |
That rear photo of my 210RD-100-EVM above was taken by the previous owner, so what you see there is how I received it... except it actually looks DIRTIER than that in real life! I think digital cameras leave off about 10 pounds.... of dirt and gunk! Here is the front of it:  This amp is so dirty, stained and beat-up I plan to totally restore it but cover it in a Fender cream Tolex with wheat grill cloth (just to be different). Maybe this winter... I bought it as a project amp after all! Steve | ||
| Dan Marx |
Had a gig last night, originally scheduled to be out on the waterside deck of a local nightclub. I hate playing outside, so I figured it'd be a good time to use my 77 lb red knob Twin, as my Deluxe Reverb doesn't cut it outside and the 4 piece R&B band I was playing with would afford me a lot of solos. As an after thought I threw my Celestion-lightened RD112-50 into my trunk. Sure enough, it rained and we set up inside. Thank god I had the pinwale boy with me, the volume level of the Twin would've gotten me tossed into the harbor. Later - DM | ||
| AUSSIE CARL |
hi guys, carl from AUS here. i need to know about some speakers for my 212RH cab, go new speakers or rebuild the old ones? this is the ext cab for my 210HD130 which has MM speakers (alnico) how do i tell ? , now when i run the ext cab with the 210hd130 do i flick my amp to 8 ohm or leave it on 4 which is where it is in combo mode? thankyou in advance. | ||
| Leslie Richardson |
I have a very similar question to Aussie's I have a 212RH One-Thirty cab. What brand / make / whatever speakers were originally installed in these units? the serial # is S01833. I am going to build myself a second cab for the amp (A MM Sixty Five) but I need some speaker information before I do the dirty deed. Any help is appreciated. | ||
| Steve Kennedy |
From the same question elsewhere on this site: You can decode speaker codes by looking at the info here: http://www.webervst.com/codes.html 67-7548 should decode as: 67 = Eminence (Manufacturer) 7548 = Manufactured the 48th week of 1975 12GPGN8F would be the model number of the speaker (probably a 12", 8-ohm from the digits used). The letters probably designate the type of frame (basket), the type and size of the voice coil, and the power rating. Hardness of a tube is how easy or difficult it is to overload the tube. Some tubes are softer (cannot take much input signal before overloading) and some are harder (can be driven harder before overload occurs). Consult the Groove Tubes web site for a detailed explanation of their numeric system. | ||
| victor scarnati |
researching my 210 rd 100,enjoying your site keep up!} | ||
| australiana carlos |
hello carl here you all know me by now my friend just purchased an awesome 210"130(with 12 ax7) it has an aftermarket effcts loop and line out fitted the question... it also has altec speakers are these original speakers??? they re beefier and louder than my eminence babys thanks all aussie boy | ||
| Steve Kennedy |
To my knowledge, Altec loudspeakers were never used as factory-supplied loudspeakers in Music Man amps. Of course, it could have been a special order, but is more likely to have been an aftermarket replacement. | ||
| aussie carlos |
cheers Kennedy, your input is very much appreciated just a quick think - this amp with the altecs - i swear it is 500 times louder than my amp with the eminence... do the speakers output more - or is my amp soft for a bizarre reason. | ||
| aussie |
please read above question | ||
| Steve Kennedy |
This is probably the speaker efficiency at work (at least partially). If Speaker "A" is 3dB more efficient than Speaker "B", then Speaker "A" will play twice as loud as Speaker "B" (assuming the impedance and amp power levels are identical). Altecs are known for their efficiency ratings, so there's that part of it. The other part could be the amps themselves. An amp with old, tired output tubes, dried-out filter capacitors and leaky rectifiers in the power supply can reduce the power supply voltage which will limit the maximum power the amp can deliver to the speakers. For example, I have an old HD-130 head with all of the above problems. This amp only has about 640V of high-voltage (it should be over 700V) and the low voltage preamp supply is down about 20% as well. This amp overloads early and only develops about 88-90 watts rms of output power (High Power setting) instead of its' rating of 130 Watts rms. | ||
| Michael Kaus |
Darn Steve, you shouldn't even have an old head like that. You should sell it too me cheap so you don't have to bother with it!(Kidding). I have one in the basement now that I'm working on that I screwed up some time ago and I built a 2-10 body for it so it's a combo now. Will make a good companion for my 2-10 65. Mike. | ||
| c@rlos from melbourne |
my amp still sounds better though its warmer and cleaner cheers for the reply | ||
| Jon Clark |
Hey there. I currently have an amp similar to the photo posted above. It's a 210-75 with the ivory tolex. Anyhow, the speakers in it look the same as the photo and only say "s1" and "s2" on them. Are these stock speakers? any thoughts on what the wattage rating on these are or any info? Thanks! | ||
| Steve Kennedy (admin) |
The cream/ivory tolex models came from the factory with the "premium" Electro-Voice EVM speakers as shown in the photos above. These speakers could be special-ordered in a standard black tolex amp, but the cream tolex models came with the EVMs as standard and were priced quite a bit higher than their black counterparts. (Look at the model chart and price lists posted elsewhere on this site.) These drivers were rated for at least 100 watts each, probably closer to 150 watts! They are overkill for the power of most of the Music Man amps that they came in! Steve | ||
| Pablo Dino |
Hey guys I was just turned on to this message board by a fellow ebayer. I watched a HD130-410 sell for under $300 on ebay not counting shipping. I was watching the auction because I have been considering selling the exact same amp, but was disheartened by the low price. I love the amp but hate the speakers, I was hoping to unload the 410 and buy a HD 130 head. Since the 410's aren't fetching that much I guess I'll just hold on to it. I tried loading some webers I picked up into it but wasn't very happy with them either. I have some old JBL 12's that absolutly bring the amp to life. I guess my problem is dragging extention speakers with me, when I should be able to just bring the 410 combo. I hear the celestion V10s that are out of production are nice. Anyone have any suggestions? | ||
| cerebral |
any chance you could carefully remove the 4x10 baffle board and speakers, and make your own (2 12" maybe, or 2 10" and 1 12" ) baffle board? I knew a guy who used to have a 410 like me, and he made a custom baffle board so he could have 2 10s and 1 12, and he liked the sound a lot better. Then later, you still have the old baffle board so if the value goes up you can put it back together and sell as original | ||
| Pablo Dino |
cerebral, I had concidered that but would rather put the effort into maybe some decent 10's. I say I tried some weber's, but there are some many different types that it would get pretty expensive experimenting. The weber's I put in were loud, chimey and punchy but they lacked bringing out the true character and tone that I get from the JBL's. I would compare the weber's to EV's. They were the high power ceramic Thames model. Am I the only one that feel the original MM's speakers fall short as compared to the potential of this amp? | ||
| cerebral |
Dunno, I have a 410 but it's a sixty five - so it has some sort of ceramic magnet speakers. I am quite fond of them, but of course they were prone to blowing so the 130's had more beefy speakers from what i understand. | ||
| david manzullo |
I have a 4-12" speaker cabinet that I don't like the way it sounds with my Musicman HD150 head. I'm thinking of changing the speakers, what brand of speakers would you recommend I buy? thx dpm | ||
| mike kaus |
I would look into something along the lines of a Celestion 40 watt in 16 ohm. That way you can wire them all in parallel and get enough wattage coverage to handle the 150 and still "mush" out a little. Just my 2c's worth. Mike. | ||
| Heinz Rebellius (henryo) Username: henryo Registered: 02-2007 |
These speakers do not look like EVs, they look like JBLs... |
Tue, 03/25/2014 - 10:01
#1
More About 10" Electro-Voice Speakers
For those, like me, who years later may stumble upon this forum discussion, here is more info about the speakers in Mr. Kennedy's 21ORD100-EVM amp.
- Model: EVI-10.
- Model Number: 1810-0276 (or 1810-0942).
- The Model Number and date of manufacture (abbrev. week and year) may be found ink-stamped on the frame supports--or not. When present the numbers are hard to see (on a black frame) and I find that the ink wears off easily with handling or cleaning, so speakers frequently lack any ID marking.
- In a dual speaker set-up, like in this amp, the speakers are probably 16-ohm versions. (When wired in parallel, they would create am 8-ohm circuit.) However, if the speakers in this amp happen to be wired in series by the factory, then the speakers were probably 4-ohm versions of the EVI-10.)
[CORRECTION: See Post #9 below. The two speakers in the 210RD-100 are both 8-ohm models.]
.
- Normally the EVI-10 is an 8-omh speaker (with a DC resistance of about 5.2 ohms).
- The EVI-10 is (was) the generic (OEM) version (sold in bulk/wholesale directly to amp builders) of the Force 10 (Model # 1810-0261). The Force 10 is (was) a retail speaker sold individually by Electro-Voice to customers (musicians, techs) through music stores or other outlets.
- Electro-Voice apparently no longer makes 10-inch guitar amplifier speakers (unfortunately). The Electro-Voice website has archived Engineering Data Sheets (EDS) on some of its discontinued products. There is no EDS, that I am aware of, for the EVI-10, however there is one for the "Force" line of speakers (10-, 12, and 15-inch models). Specifications for the EVI-10 are probably the same as for a Force 10. If so,...
- 150 watts (maximum capacity)
- 8 ohms (but 16- and perhaps 4-ohm versions were apparently available) [UPDATE: And the 16-ohm version was used by Fender, and maybe other manufacturers, but not by Music Man I am told.]
- 12 lb. total weight
- 10 lb. magnet weight (big)
- 75-7000 Hz frequency response
- die-cast aluminum frame
I've attached two photos (1 and 2) that compare the EVI-10 (on the right) to its retail counterpart, the Force 10 (on the left). The last two photos (3 and 4) are of the EVI-10 by itself. Note that it does not say "Force" or "EV" on the front dust cap of the EVI-10, and it lacks a rear metal emblem (w/"Force 10"). Also, the generic EVI-10 has regular spade terminals (that can be soldered for hard-working gigging musicians), not the fancier push-to-connect speaker-wire attachment hardware found on the Force 10.
Although there is (was) a 13-lb. EVI-12 (similar to Force 12) speaker, Music Man apparently chose to use as an upgrade the heavier, EVM-12 speaker in its amps that used 12-inch speakers. I have not seen the model numbers of the 12-inch Electro-Voice speakers used in those Music Man amps, but I assume that they were the generic/OEM version of the popular EVM-12L speakers (300 watts, 8- or 16-ohms, 19 lb.). The "Force" speakers--EVI- 10s and 12s; Force 10s, 12s, and 15s--all had the characteristic finned/vanned/ridged, cast rear magnet cover plate. The EVM speakers used in OEM applications tended to have a flat rear magnet cover plate. That is why the Electro-Voice speaker in an RD112-50 EVM amp, for example, lacks the ridges--it is a true (12") EVM speaker and not the lighter (12") EVI version.
Minor point: The use of "EVM" in the Model Names of the upgraded 10-inch speaker amps--e.g., 110RD-50 EVM, 210RD100 EVM, et cetera.--is somewhat of a misnomer, as the Electro-Voice speakers used were not true EVM models, but the lighter weight EVI version. (I assume that EVI-10s were also used in the 210RP-100 EVM, 210-75 EVM, 210HD-150 EVM, 410HD-150 EVM, and 210RH-150 EVM amps?) Since Electro-Voice EVM speakers were used in speaker-upgraded 12-inch speaker models, Music Man must have decided to use just the single (more recognizable, more prestigious?) Model Name code--i.e., "EVM"--to designate its amps with Electro-Voice speaker upgrades.
Some additional info on EV speakers is available here:
- http://www.electrovoice.com/downloads.php?d=1 (for EDSs on discontinued speakers)
- http://tescanada.com/ev-speakers-legacy-parts-list-50.html (click on the spreadsheet to download EV speaker info)
- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HC25NwrRNvo (Paul Rivera explains why EV speakers are so great)
- http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showthread.php?p=18126949#post18126949 (informative posts by me and others)
Lastly, does anyone know what Electro-Voice speaker was optionally used in the single-speaker Music Man amps from the early 1980s (e.g., the 110RD-50EVM)? I assume it was a single 8-ohm EVI-10 (with ridges), but I have not seen a photo to verify that. Thanks for any info.
[UPDATE: We now know that my speculation was true: Electro-Voice EVI-10s were used by Music Man in the 110RD-50 EVM amp. See Post #5, below.]
Have you looked at the 1982 price list?
The MM 1982 price list, which I often refer to, shows the MM part/model number for the EV speakers. Not surprisingly, only one part# is used for each size of EV speaker. They are all heavy duty enough to handle whatever they were being put into. The price list is available for download from the forum website.
Cheers,
Lars Verholt
Applicability of 1982 MM Price List for Electro-Voice Speaker ID
Thanks Lars, that was promising advice. I actually already had a copy of the 1982 Price List.
However, I believe the Price List is an unreliable source of information for identifying EV speakers because a good deal of the information in the price list about EV speakers is, I believe, in error. This calls into question the validity of using the Price List for determining details about these speakers. Here are examples of what I mean:
1. An EVM-10L is, as far as I know, a generic/OEM 16-ohm speaker (see Photo 1, below). Like its 8-ohm counterpart--the generic/OEM EVM-10 (Photo 2)--it is (was) an 18-pound, 300 watt speaker with a flat rear plate over the magnet. I do not believe that it was used in Music Man amplifiers. It certainly was NOT used in the 110RD-50 EVM or 210RD-100 EVM amps.
2. Contrary to what the Price List says, Electro-Voice did not make a 100-watt guitar amplifier speaker that I am aware of, and definitely not one of the EVM models (they are all either 200-or 300-watt speakers).
3. At the time I first wrote this response I had not seen a photo of a 110RD-50 with an Electro-Voice speaker (i.e., the 110RD-50 EVM amp) which is why I asked for confirmation about the speaker in them. Since then I have seen a photo in an eBay auction ad of a supposedly stock 110RD-50 EVM amp (see my post below). Assuming the eBay ad info is accurate, we now know that the 110RD-50 EVM and (Steve Kennedy's) 210RD100-EVM did NOT come with an Electro-Voice EVM-10L or any other EVM speaker.
4. Instead, they came with one or two Electro-Voice EVI-10 speakers (Model Number 1810-0276, most likely). The EVI speakers were lighter (12-lb.), somewhat smaller (because of reduced magnet diameter), and less powerful (150-watt) speakers that fit in certain early 1980s Music Man and Fender (e.g., Super Champs) amps. Ten-inch EVI and EVM speakers DO use the same aluminum frame, but EVIs have a smaller magnet. They were still plenty powerful singularly for a 50-watt amp or in tandem for a 100-watt amp. Hooked up in pairs, as in Steve's amp, they are probably 16-ohm versions (if wired in parallel). If Steve were to measure the DC resistance of one of his speakers alone I bet it would measure a little over 10 ohms (i.e., be a "16-ohm" speaker).
Now Music Man DID use Electro-Voice EVM speakers in some of their amps--but it was in the amps with 12-inch speakers only, I believe. But even there, the Price List has some incorrect information:
5. I am looking right now at the 1983 Electro-Voice EDS (engineering data sheet) for the EVM-12S and it was a (awesome) 300 watt speaker (not 150 watts). (The 200-watt EVM-12S Series II version was not introduced widely until the late 1980s or early 1990s). Likewise, the EVM-12L, another great and similar-looking guitar amp speaker, was 300 watts also.
Model numbers, found stamped on the rear plate or side supports, are what is really needed to tell the generic/OEM EVM models apart. People misname Electro-Voice speakers all the time, even in official documents and especially online. Nonetheless, the EVI models (the Force 10 and EVI-10) are easy to identify because of the rear ridged magnet plate. That is fortunate because it is often hard to find the stamped model number on the black side supports pf the EVI models.
So the MM Price List can be a questionable source of info about EV speakers due to a certain number of actual or potential inaccuracies. Not surprising. EV speaker models are frequently misidentified because of the appearance similarities among the generic versions (those lacking factory identification labels) and because of Electro-Voice's unfortunate tendency, in my opinion, to have used inconsistent model names for its different sized speakers. For example, the most popular 12-inch model was the 8-ohm EVM-12L, but the EVM-10L was apparently a less-common 16-ohm specialty speaker (used by Mesa/Boogie in tandem cabinets, for example).
However, the Price List WAS informative about the EV speakers in one regard: it suggested that if you figure about three pounds for box and packing material then the Electro-Voice speaker used for 10-inch speaker guitar amp models was the lighter EVI-10 (at 12 lb.) and not a heavier (18-lb.) EVM model. We now know that this is indeed correct. However, I question whether the EVI-10 was used for _all_ 10-inch MM amps, especially for bass amps. Electro-Voice made similar bass speakers (the B-10 and 10BX, for example--see Photos 3 and 4) with lower frequency response ranges. The Electro-Voice 10BX (Model Number 1810-) for example was, like the EVI-10, an 8-ohm, 150-watt speaker. And it had the smaller magnet and weighed 11.5 lb. (not 18 lb. like an EVM speaker). Based on the photos, both EV bass speaker models appear to have had the smaller diameter magnets, like the EVI-10s, and probably weighed just 12 pounds or less. Again, EVM speakers were apparently NOT used for 10-inch speaker MM amps, whether either guitar or bass amps.
Regards,
Tim
110RD-50 EVM with Stock Electro-Voice Speaker
Here are photos from a recent (September 2014) eBay sale of a (100% original) 110ZRD-50 EVM amp in the pinwale white corduroy wherein the owner/seller claims that the Electro-Voice speaker was stock. As you can see it IS outfitted with the Electro-Voice EVI-10 (and not a heavier EVM speaker). This would be the 8-ohm version of the EVI-10.
In hindsight, the EVI-10 was a perfect choice in the 1980s for relatively small amps like the 110RD-50 (or '80s Fender Super Champ) or 210-RD-100 using 10-inch speakers. At 150 watts maximum capacity, the EVI-10 is more than adequate to handle power requirements of these single-speaker (50 watts for the Music Man 110-RD-50 amp and only 18 watts for the Fender amp) and dual-speaker amps. Yet it has a smaller, less wide magnet (that just cleared components like tubes, transformers, and reverb tanks). As owners looking to customize have found, the heavier EVM speakers (like the retail EVM-10M or generic EVM-10) with their wider magnets do not fit in these amp cabinets without moving components around. And Electro-Voice EVM speakers are 200- (for Series II) or 300-watt speakers--overkill, imo. Yet, as Paul Rivera implied in his YouTube discussion (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HC25NwrRNvo), the EVI-10 speakers (which he did not differentiate from the heavier EVM speakers) still provide that Electro-Voice sound and "magic" in combination with certain amps. Mr. Rivera's thinking (on Electro-Voice speakers) may have influenced the Fender engineers that moved over to Music Man.
Electro-Voice EVI-10 into MM 110RD-50
Just a quick note: The speaker discussed above fits right into the 110RD-50 from the rear and without much fuss. I will probably post photos over on thegearpage.net forum discussing/showing the steps.
Hey tps5352 ... ... ... ...
Hey tps5352 ... ... ... ...
Can you post links to the thread on gearpage when you have uploaded your photos/steps please?
Steps to Install Electro-Voice EVI-10 Speaker into 110RD-50 Amp
Here you go:
http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showthread.php?p=18755595#post18755595
Music Man utilized 8-ohm speakers only!
Thanks for the link, nice detective work! However, all Music Man combos and cabinets utilized 8-ohm speakers exclusively. The difference betrween a 2-speaker combo and a single or 4 speaker combo is that the 2-speaker combo's Extension speaker jack is isolated from the chassis and is wired in SERIES with the Main speaker ouput jack. The amp is run in the 4-ohm setting if using only the internal speakers and in the 8-ohm setting if an external cabinet is used as well.
On the 1 & 4 speaker combos the Extension speaker jack is grounded to chassis as is the Main speaker ack and the jacks are wired in parallel. This is noted on the rear data plate on most MM amps. These amps are run in the 8-ohm position when using the internal speakers and the 4-ohm position when using an external cabinet as well.
Steve
MM Speaker Ohm Ratings
Good information, thanks. That must have been handy for Music Man--i.e., to be able to use only 8-ohm speakers. (I was more familiar with the Fender Super Champ and other '80s Fender tube amps, where two-speaker combo amps and cabinets use a pair of 16-ohm speakers.) The electronic/transistor design of these MM amps and their ability to run in different modes (e.g., either 4- or 8-ohms) clearly gives them added flexibility.
See my 110 RD50
See my pics on the user pic forum of a white 110 RD50 for Electrovoice EVI-10 that came with mine"
Speaker Wire Assembly Needed
As noted above, I'd like to replace the jury-rigged speaker wire assembly in the 110RD-50 I worked on. I posted a request to find a close-to-original speaker wire assembly in the "For Sale" Ads & Wants (http://pacair.com/mmamps3/node/1989) (is that the best place?), but mention it here for the sake of thoroughness.
Tim
RD 50. 112
Anybody out there with a photo of the insides of their RD 50 110 or 112 ? I need a photo showing the colour code bands on the resistor close to the 4 diods to the left of the black heat syncs . This resistor has been so hot the colours are burnt off and i dont think its working.
Cheers. Superchet.
Hot Resistor
If you mean the resistor below the four diodes (D12,D13,D14,D15) to the left of the heat sinks, it is R62, 470 ohm 1/2 watt, Yellow, Purple, Brown.
When R62 gets hot it's usually because of a failing zener diode (D9), so you may want to check/replace that before it fails, taking R62 along with it.